mhunt300 ([info]mhunt300) wrote,
@ 2008-03-19 17:47:00
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Five years ago today bombs began to fall on distant cities and as their citizens hid in closets protecting and holding their families close, hope swelled within their chests that soon, freedom would reign again in the nation of Iraq. Imagine, to live without fear, without secret police, without torturous prisons, and with something they could believe in again.
But five years later, with poor planning, poor leadership, and a war not based on facts and hope, we are stuck in these distant cities. 3,992 American soldiers dead on the fronts lines. 3,992 families left with gaping holes in their hearts.
We have accomplished almost nothing, we have provided targets for our enemas, more reasons for the world to hate us more, it has divided us as Americans, and weakened us as a nation.

Today marks 5 years of senseless war, pay attention, get involved, vote, and never stop asking questions and discussing answers, it's the only way possible to honor the dead who died for our freedoms.



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[info]spooky46
2008-03-20 12:35 am UTC (link)
Five years of listening to you people whine about a war you don't understand except what TV decides to tell you. Five years of complaints from people who have never served and have never stepped foot in Iraq or Afganistan. Five years of you comparing it to Veitnam-another war you neither understand or served in.

I can't wait for the war to end either but for completely different reasons.

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(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spooky46, 2008-03-20 01:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 09:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dornbeast, 2008-03-20 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dornbeast, 2008-03-30 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dornbeast, 2008-03-31 12:03 am UTC
... - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-31 12:16 am UTC
... - [info]dornbeast, 2008-03-31 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:55 am UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 03:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panzerfaust15, 2008-03-20 04:34 am UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:51 pm UTC
... - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-20 01:34 pm UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:21 pm UTC
... - [info]chuckles48, 2008-03-20 05:42 pm UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:02 pm UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-31 09:51 pm UTC
You May Have Been Deceived - [info]vakratunda, 2008-03-20 02:58 am UTC
Re: You May Have Been Deceived - [info]mhunt300, 2008-03-20 03:15 am UTC
And I Agree - [info]vakratunda, 2008-03-20 07:39 am UTC
Oh Yeah - [info]vakratunda, 2008-03-20 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 05:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]45bravo, 2008-03-21 04:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ainasiriel, 2008-03-22 06:29 am UTC
You make the best point - [info]anneandhenry, 2008-03-23 02:10 am UTC
Re: You make the best point - [info]45bravo, 2008-03-23 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vakratunda, 2008-03-23 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]45bravo, 2008-03-23 09:11 pm UTC
Re: You make the best point - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-24 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]antirevisionist, 2008-03-26 01:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nsane87, 2008-03-26 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spooky46, 2008-03-27 09:53 pm UTC

[info]hunterkirk
2008-03-20 12:41 am UTC (link)
I really like that you represented the picture of all those who died at the had of Hussan and the terrorist insergents.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 03:03 am UTC
... - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-20 03:21 am UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 03:40 am UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 05:48 am UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:09 pm UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:01 pm UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 11:07 pm UTC
... - [info]spooky46, 2008-03-27 11:10 pm UTC
... - [info]patsfangr, 2008-03-20 09:47 am UTC
... - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:55 pm UTC
... - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:13 pm UTC
... - [info]gi_janearng, 2008-03-20 04:52 pm UTC
... - [info]turtle_147, 2008-03-21 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]patsfangr, 2008-03-20 09:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-20 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:17 pm UTC
... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:31 pm UTC
... - [info]chuckles48, 2008-03-20 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nsane87, 2008-03-31 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-31 12:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nsane87, 2008-03-31 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-31 12:39 am UTC
Um... - [info]iranianajax.wordpress.com, 2008-03-22 05:32 am UTC
Re: Um... - [info]hunterkirk, 2008-03-22 12:47 pm UTC
Re: Um... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-24 09:46 pm UTC

[info]mhunt300
2008-03-20 02:21 am UTC (link)
I am curious as to where everyone saw my post...?

But grateful for such a discussion to crop up

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mhunt300, 2008-03-20 02:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-20 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 12:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-20 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tongodeon, 2008-03-20 07:39 pm UTC
... - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-27 11:59 am UTC
... - [info]tongodeon, 2008-03-31 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]putzicus, 2008-03-20 03:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]putzicus, 2008-03-20 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chuckles48, 2008-03-20 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paladyn, 2008-03-21 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]millenium_king, 2008-03-22 05:40 am UTC
We Have Provided Targets For Our Enemas
[info]vakratunda
2008-03-20 02:42 am UTC (link)
It is interesting to reflect that in 1952 (the last year of the Truman administration) the Korean war was widely seen as a failure, and Truman himself was widely considered one of the worst presidents that we ever had.


.

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Re: We Have Provided Targets For Our Enemas - [info]jordan179, 2008-03-30 11:23 pm UTC

[info]fnorm
2008-03-20 04:04 am UTC (link)

Can someone please tell me why the Anti-War people are worse than listening to a bunch of Fundy southern Baptists ?

Seriously.

look at history. our losses in this "war" are a pittance compared to most other wars.

people are under the FALSE impression that if we were not at war, Billions of dollars would somehow have been correctly spent on all your pet projects... that simply is not the case.

you also cannot claim that all the money being spent in Iraq makes no impact on our economy... Heck, our soldiers and Sailors do not work for free.. our Military does not get its equipment for free.

But, and this is the big important point..

When you are preaching for Tolerance, and understanding different points of view... what makes you holier than thou ?

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(no subject) - [info]panzerfaust15, 2008-03-20 04:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]john_of_arabia, 2008-03-20 01:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-20 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gi_janearng, 2008-03-20 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katpetal, 2008-03-27 03:35 pm UTC

[info]roseybette
2008-03-20 04:52 am UTC (link)
thank you for this reminder

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[info]patsfangr
2008-03-20 09:27 am UTC (link)
I am currently watching last night's 'NBC Nightly News', which broadcasts a day later here in Thailand, where I now live. They just presented some factual, objective numbers about key elements of Iraqi life now, versus during the past 5 years. In virtually every category, including level of violence, number of deaths, availability of basic services like water and power, etc.

Life IS getting better for the people of Iraq as a result of our military protection, and our technical aid and advice. We are repairing the damage done by the war.

Did we cause that damage? Of course we did. Why? Does it really matter NOW? I would contend that, even with the eroneous information from our intelligence sources, there was justification for this war. Do the anti-war people believe we should have a "hands off" policy when a vicious dictator, as Saddam most certainly was, commits murders and tortures to a near genocidal level? Is that OK? Should we ignore the fact that our oil interests - the oil which still, unfortunately, still exerts a very heavy influence on our economy - are threatened by control of an erratic, anti-American leader, as Saddam was? I don't care whether there were or were not WMD's in Iraq when we invaded. We had, IMO, adequate reason to invade that country, and depose Saddam Hussein.

And, now that we are there, I would consider it the height of immorality to abandon the Iraqi people, and leave behind a broken, though improving infrastructure, a deeply troubled economy, and an extremely unstable government. Yes, we will continue to lose some precious American lives. As a Vietnam veteran, I feel the pain of the loss of every American troop. But there are very sound reasons for fulfilling the obligation that we have now assumed, whether or not you accept my contention that the war was justifiable initially.

There can and should be continued discussion and argument about how to maximize the effectiveness of our efforts. But I can see no truly moral or economic reason to simply abandon the effort at warp speed.

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(no subject) - [info]inmonopolus, 2008-03-20 01:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-20 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]patsfangr, 2008-03-21 03:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 06:15 pm UTC
From Investor's Business Daily
[info]vakratunda
2008-03-20 03:28 pm UTC (link)
[W]e didn't find WMDs?

On the contrary, U.S. troops found more than 500 weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.


These were mostly chemical munitions, artillery shells, aerial bombs etc.

Here are some other excerpts from the article:

Iraq is today a growing economy again. From 2002 through 2006, the most recent year for which data are available, per capita GDP in dollars jumped 110%.

Before the war, there were some 833,000 people with telephones. Today, there's 9.8 million. Fewer than 5,000 people were on the Internet during Saddam's rein of terror; today, it's a quarter million.

There were no private TV stations under Saddam; today Iraq has more than 50. There are at least 260 independent newspapers and magazines in Iraq, vs. none under Saddam. Just 1.5 million cars were registered before the war; by 2005, that had hit 3.1 million.

In short, by almost any objective measure one might choose, Iraqis are today much better off than they were under Saddam. Those that deny this are, frankly, deluded.

Better still, Saddam's jackbooted minions no longer pull people screaming out of their homes for torture sessions and murder.

By some estimates, an average of 50,000 people died each year from Saddam's campaigns of genocide, ethnic cleansing and political murder. Last year, the peak of the surge, there were 18,000 civilian deaths — mostly by terrorists.


.

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[info]ieatyourdog
2008-03-20 05:39 pm UTC (link)
haha enema. And we have made some progress over here (for the better and for the worse, more the former)...the Iraq I saw in February 07 and the Iraq I see now (I'm on my last month of a 15 month deployment) are worlds apart. We'll just have to see what steps Muqtada al Sadr takes in the coming months.

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[info]patsfangr
2008-03-21 03:51 am UTC (link)
One of the saddest things about opinions on the war is that no amount of rhetoric or list of things proclaimed as factual by either side, will get anyone to change their minds. ... Oh ... wait ... I forgot about Hillary!

Let's face it, a pacifist like 'im...' is never going to change her views. They are based upon her core beliefs, as surely as the core beliefs of Bin Ladan will continue to drive him to seek the total eradication of all those who do not accept his religion; and as surely as people like me believe that there are reasons of a less immediate nature than an attempted invasion of the USA for us to send our troops into battle.

Discussion such as we have in this thread are an excellent opportunity for all of us to gather and express our thoughts and positions on the current situation in Iraq. But, in the end, no minds will be changed. If anything, seeing what each side believes to be unacceptable and ludicrous reasoning from the other side will only deepen our commitments to our respective positions.

I doubt that there is more than a miniscule percentage of people who participate in, or even read, a thread like this, who have not already formed their irreversible position on the current situation. There are, undoubtedly, many differing opinions with regard to how we should proceed from here, on both sides of the "stay or leave" position. "How should we withdraw" is a question which would certainly not be answered the same by all those favoring that course of action. Likewise, "What should we do to most effectively help Iraq to become a self-sufficient, peaceful society, with a stable economy?", is a question that would not be answered the same way by those favoring continuation on that course. But the basic positions of "continue with our commitment" or "leave quickly" are not going to change in any of us.

As for arguments over whether or not we were "justified" to invade initially; or arguments about the course of action since the end of the conventional war, they are moot. We can't change what has happened. All that matters now is how we proceed from this point forward. And, as I said, we are all firmly committed to one course or the other, at a general level.

Sorry, but those are the facts.

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[info]demetrious
2008-03-21 05:55 am UTC (link)
"Abraham Lincoln said he defeated his enemies by making them his friends. You alienate your friends, and make more enemies."

I would just like to take this moment to point out that this common assertion by the anti-war types is completely, and patently, bogus.

To wit- our "Friends" were never our friends in the least. Both Russia and France- especially France- were selling weapons to the Iraqi's in direct violation of UN arms embargos. This has bee extensively researched and covered by noted journalist Bill Gertz in his book Treachery. He begins the book with the story of an American A-10 Warthog pilot that was shot down by a French-built Roland anti-aircraft missile- the batch number on the rest of the captured shipment revealed it had been sold long after the day when America had announced that it would be invading Iraq. It's no secret that France's export arms industry is very lucrative, and I need not speak on the sale of military equipment Russia engages in, what with the entire world using surplus Russian MiG fighters.

That, in a nutshell, is the conduct of our "Friends." If it doesn't make you mad, well, it should make you mad. The institution that our "friends" told us should be allowed to contain the threat of Iraq, the United Nations, has since been revealed to have been throughly corrupted by Saddam, turning the "Oil For Food" program that was supposed to alleviate the suffering of the people, imposed by the UN trade sanctions, into a money hose for Saddam to build up his palaces and fund his other delightful pursuits.

In short, our "friends" always were a pack of lying, sophist bastards that were out for their own self-interest- like any nation. The United Nations, and our "friends," failed to achieve any progress with Iraq in thirty years, (besides being corrupted and infiltrated by Saddam,) and yet we are supposed to cede to their demands?

This notion that such tender concepts as "friendship" have a dominant standing in the interplay between nation-states is as naive as it is foolish. It is an attempt to personalize, and emotionalize, international politics- a realm that is often as ruthless and partisan an arena as has ever been devised by man. Abraham Lincoln might have wrapped up the war by making "friends with his enemies," but he won it by fighting them to the bitter finish, at the cost of many lives. That was called the "Civil War." You might have heard of it.

And, one more comment. Observe, in this speech by the new French President Sarkozy to the US Congress:

The state of our friendship and our alliance is strong.

Friendship, first and foremost, means being true to one's friends. Since the United States first appeared on the world scene, the loyalty between the French and American people has never failed. And far from being weakened by the vicissitudes of History, it has never ceased growing stronger... In times of difficulty, in times of hardship, America and France have always stood side by side, supported one another, helped one another, fought for each other's freedom.

The United States and France remain true to the memory of their common history, true to the blood spilled by their children in common battles. But they are not true merely to the memory of what they accomplished together in the past. They remain true, first and foremost, to the same ideal, the same principles, the same values that have always united them.


That sounds like some extreme alienation, there, doesn't it?

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(no subject) - [info]panzerfaust15, 2008-03-21 06:41 am UTC

[info]kissyferjenn
2008-03-21 07:15 pm UTC (link)
Hey, thanx alot for not supporting my husband risking his life for you to be able too whine about a war. He's in Iraq teaching Iraqi police to do their jobs more efficiently, so they have a chance at a better futre for their own country. The are there helping these people, and little do you know most Iraqi's want soldiers there.
Once again, thanks for your support. I'll be sure not to tell him that there people like you out there that don't care.

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